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Sakuretsu

Remove duo queue

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It has been observed that the usage of duo in BG greatly unbalances teams. For instance, there is no counter to a prof and creo hitting you at the same time. You need to have the ghostring to reduce AD damage AND have ranged resist or demi resist at the same time, meaning you cant have reflect to fight the prof. If you dont have demi resist the creo kills you, if you have demi resist the prof kills you. It's a lose lose situation.

As interesting as it is of a feature for the server it is one that hurts BG as it completely unbalances the teams to the point of making me want to quit BGing whenever i see said combo. I'm sure that I'm not the only one who thinks that way. Sure removing the BG queue won't stop those combos from happening but at the very least it will make it happen not 100% of the time.

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Posted (edited)

This has actually been tread over a few times already, but I'm glad that it's being discussed finally in the form of a forum post.  It'll be interesting to see what kind of communal reply this gets beyond the same handful of players who see the glaring issues with this feature.

 

Overall, I still feel exactly the same now as I did back then, see here -

I think the elephant is clearly in the room when it comes to the potential problems posed by duo'd characters.  There are certain class combos that, when ensured to land on the same team, pose a massive threat to the enemy team and even become a nuisance when consistently landing on the same team to the point where they almost consistently impact the outcome.  Scholar + Creator is just one classic example, but there are many other instances of why this feature is a pain in the arse such as High Wizard + Creator, Paladin + pretty much anything, and even a Stalker + SinX or certain High Priest combos.

 

Allowing players to pick their own duo'd class which they may have almost perfect synergy with is unbalanced because all other aspects of BG are randomised, and it really shows in games where players duo.  Especially so in games where there are multiple duos since they have a chance of landing on the same team and suddenly you have 4 coordinated players on the same team participating in an otherwise totally random game mode.

 

One of the biggest arguments of course is that duos encourage players to help out a newbie or "hang out" with mates, but this is not how the feature is being used to date as far as I can tell, and if nothing else, simply alienates the players who want to just play the game.  The feature is instead being used in order to flex, farm more objectives effectively and to min/max with broken class combos.

 

Another factor of course as well is that from trying to be in the shoes of developer, this feature took time and energy to implement, and this shouldn't be overlooked, but with how the feature is being used currently, it also shouldn't be the boon that keeps the feature as is either.

 

You should be able to enjoy the game playing with or against friends.  I know that I personally do, but I may be a minority there.  I'd like to hear from both types of players, but as a person who has experienced the plague of 1 or 2 duos on a team, including my own, I don't find them to be particularly intuitive to the "fun" factor.  Additionally, it is much worse on certain modes than others, and while that's beside the point, it's still food for thought considering this is a server whose big feature is its BG.

Edited by Hylian Spectre

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Posted (edited)

I completely agree. I've been against DuoQ since my start at the server, said similar things that Saku pointed out, and there have been multiple threads, I made one myself and Hylian Spectre just pointed out the most recent one that Ray made. I still think they won't get removed because "it encourages new players to play with their friends" or so has been repeated on each one of these threads. 

People abuse the system, you have coordinated individuals trashing entire teams because they have the comp that allows them to when it's supposed to be randomized. DuoQ should be something that can definitely be implemented --- in a separate BG (which would never start because we don't even have the population to separate them). Now, my actual point is that duoq encourages older players to play with their own veteran friends. This makes it quite unbalanced as the newbies are left to fend off against other vets that would not be as coordinated or have a punishing duo comp to trash on others. The point that we make about "new players get to play with friends" doesn't become null because there's always that one newbie or two that comments "yeah that's the only reason why I BG" so until then, it won't get removed. Good luck, though. I don't even play BG anymore xd

Hylian Spectre pointed out something about playing vs friends, so let me just casually mention that if you don't like going vs your friends, you're stupid. That's the perfect time to enjoy killing them as you most likely play with them in WoE and can't kill them "by accident" in the middle of a GvG. If the char is alive, it's meant to be killed. /gg Killing friends is way more fun than killing "enemies". But that's not the soul of this discussion, he just pointed it out so I wanted to do so too.

 

Another Con that I can see vs the argument is that, in BG, you're supposed to be working as a team, so those 1v2 situations ya'll are describing shouldn't really be happening if you just stay with your boys. If you're getting 1v2'd in the first place, theoretically, you shouldn't be coming out on top. Sure, you can argue that you're better than them (or they're two magic classes and you just fuck them with reflect LUL, or,  they were all newbs with just one tao and no switches and you're a vet with enough switches and fingers)  but most likely you're going to be in their base or somewhere in the map with positioning that could've been better to avoid the situation. Sometimes you just get caught, it happens. The system is smart enough so that you won't all be snipers vs a bunch of creo/wizzie duos anyway. I'm not gonna bother proofreading this or making sure that my thoughts are actually conveyed properly so if you understand what I'm trying to say, cool, if not, just ignore this paragraph.


I never duo, fuck duos. When I played I could reach a good score and KDA all by myself, duos are dumb (fuk you mond taking my #1 that one month a year ago). Ok, I've duo'd a couple of times but didn't really coordinate. Remember greg when we tried to play stalker and ninja? that went badly HAHAHA

Edited by Kratos Fon Fabre

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1 hour ago, Kratos Fon Fabre said:

. Remember greg when we tried to play stalker and ninja? that went badly HAHAHA

Yes and we sucked bad, but i enjoyed being able to do it.  Which i guess could be used against me since i did have fun being able to que up with a friend

 

But id rather not have duo que at all. 

1 hour ago, Hylian Spectre said:

 

I think the elephant is clearly in the room when it comes to the potential problems posed by duo'd characters.  There are certain class combos that, when ensured to land on the same team, pose a massive threat to the enemy team and even become a nuisance when consistently landing on the same team to the point where they almost consistently impact the outcome.  Scholar + Creator is just one classic example, but there are many other instances of why this feature is a pain in the arse such as High Wizard + Creator, Paladin + pretty much anything, and even a Stalker + SinX or certain High Priest combos.

this this this this this.

2 hours ago, Sakuretsu said:

It has been observed that the usage of duo in BG greatly unbalances teams. For instance, there is no counter to a prof and creo hitting you at the same time. You need to have the ghostring to reduce AD damage AND have ranged resist or demi resist at the same time, meaning you cant have reflect to fight the prof. If you dont have demi resist the creo kills you, if you have demi resist the prof kills you. It's a lose lose situation.

now imagin being the only other creo in que with no other mages in que (its happened more than you think) .............. you are garunteed to be against this 100% of the time. super lame af.  

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Kratos Fon Fabre said:

That's the perfect time to enjoy killing them as you most likely play with them in WoE and can't kill them "by accident" in the middle of a GvG. If the char is alive, it's meant to be killed. /gg Killing friends is way more fun than killing "enemies". But that's not the soul of this discussion, he just pointed it out so I wanted to do so too.

Precisely, to me BG matches should be treated as if you were playing some halo with friends. And if you get put in different teams, so what?

 

2 hours ago, Kratos Fon Fabre said:

Another Con that I can see vs the argument is that, in BG, you're supposed to be working as a team, so those 1v2 situations ya'll are describing shouldn't really be happening if you just stay with your boys. If you're getting 1v2'd in the first place, theoretically, you shouldn't be coming out on top. Sure, you can argue that you're better than them (or they're two magic classes and you just fuck them with reflect LUL, or,  they were all newbs with just one tao and no switches and you're a vet with enough switches and fingers)  but most likely you're going to be in their base or somewhere in the map with positioning that could've been better to avoid the situation. Sometimes you just get caught, it happens. The system is smart enough so that you won't all be snipers vs a bunch of creo/wizzie duos anyway. I'm not gonna bother proofreading this or making sure that my thoughts are actually conveyed properly so if you understand what I'm trying to say, cool, if not, just ignore this paragraph.

The thing is they can still focus the same target to take them down even if its a 3v2 situation so it doesnt really make it any different. It will be 2v1 3 times rather than 3v2.

Of course the only example ive given is creo-prof, but there are other nasty combinations out there, for instance LK-paladin is the top objective gather combo, combining the speed of a peco with the paladin's devotion to keep them alive as they lose HP until its down to 1 (move speed is the best stat in the game after all).

Wiz-linker allows the wizard to be protected from any enemy linker.

Sac focused paladin and prof is another one, wizard-creo is similar to prof-creo, gunner stalker can be potentially deadly, just have the stalker flying kick on top of an enemy and then CC them, then send the gunner to desperado to death

 

Edited by Sakuretsu

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Posted (edited)
On 7/17/2019 at 10:41 PM, Sakuretsu said:

The thing is they can still focus the same target to take them down even if its a 3v2 situation so it doesnt really make it any different. It will be 2v1 3 times rather than 3v2.

While we can continue talking about particular situations, it's not quite exactly the nature of this conversation (else we're going to end up talking about x class vs  z and y class, switches, etc etc), so I'll just leave it aside as we've covered that these situations are part of the issue.

 

On 7/17/2019 at 10:41 PM, Sakuretsu said:

Precisely, to me BG matches should be treated as if you were playing some halo with friends. And if you get put in different teams, so what?

 

YES. I never understood why some people don't like hitting each other. Maybe I just like violence too much. Nonetheless, I've seen it raised as a concern various times that people "aren't attacking their friends", which, again, that concept seems to escape me. Maybe because of the points? But getting points it's actually really easy so maybe they're just bad or something. Oh, well.

 

I personally would enjoy trolling with a high priest and a professor to web and dec agi everyone we see. DuoQ is and can be something positive and fun (though it depends if you actually contribute to the team rather than just focusing on one person the entire match), but the way we see it executed is through people that duoQ causing concerning balancing issues to both the teams and the scoring system, which we've tried to address in multiple posts. If keeps being an issue, hence why we continue to bring it up, lol. 

Edited by Kratos Fon Fabre

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Personally, I have nothing against BG duos, as I could land on either side, and I have seen a match or two when the team with a very advantageous line up loses, tho I wouldn't know if any of the members are duo'd or not. (Maybe I jinxed it? idk...)

 

So this is just me brain storming:

What if instead of completely removing duo queue, partnerships are limited instead?

Like damage + damage is not allowed...

Then maybe snipers + damage and support + damage/snipers are allowed? (with a few vet exceptions, most snipers are trappers, ergo utility) 

This may seem complicated to BG newbies, but it will help maintain the balance of power.

Might even limit the number of times you'll find TDM or TI with a priest and 2 SLs on your team (when even the 2 damagers cry @die smh)

 

Shout out to Urang the crazy trapper and Gelolas (a Vet, I bet) You make my life miserable when I trip all over your traps.

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9 hours ago, Bob said:

Personally, I have nothing against BG duos, as I could land on either side, and I have seen a match or two when the team with a very advantageous line up loses, tho I wouldn't know if any of the members are duo'd or not. (Maybe I jinxed it? idk...)

 

So this is just me brain storming:

What if instead of completely removing duo queue, partnerships are limited instead?

Like damage + damage is not allowed...

Then maybe snipers + damage and support + damage/snipers are allowed? (with a few vet exceptions, most snipers are trappers, ergo utility) 

This may seem complicated to BG newbies, but it will help maintain the balance of power.

Might even limit the number of times you'll find TDM or TI with a priest and 2 SLs on your team (when even the 2 damagers cry @die smh)

 

Shout out to Urang the crazy trapper and Gelolas (a Vet, I bet) You make my life miserable when I trip all over your traps.


It's an interesting idea, but here's one problem:

Some classes can do both damage and healing, creo is very proficient at healing when built right, and dealing damage when built in another way. In those cases, how do you determine what class is damage, and what class isn't damage? In fact you could switch equipment between healing and damage dealer if you want

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Instead of limiting partnerships we could reduce the amount of points duoq people get. By duoq you're going to be getting more points than normal as you have someone to cooperate with AND at a faster rate. Limiting that by reducing their points by 1/3 or so could be a potential fix for that. However, my issue is that duoq still causes balancing issues between teams but any penalty they get I'm happy for

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3 hours ago, Kratos Fon Fabre said:

Instead of limiting partnerships we could reduce the amount of points duoq people get. By duoq you're going to be getting more points than normal as you have someone to cooperate with AND at a faster rate. Limiting that by reducing their points by 1/3 or so could be a potential fix for that. However, my issue is that duoq still causes balancing issues between teams but any penalty they get I'm happy for

 

+1 for this, if not lowering even more the points gained in an effort do disencourage using it to climb ladder, but mainly to have fun which is why "people want to duo queue", altough the people who duo queue don't really care for the fun aspect, they want the instant rewards(bg tickets). win rates of duos is probably around the 75% mark.

 

and as it was said before in this topic, duoing is one way to minimize the randomization of teams, which in itself is counter intuitive on a all-random team objective game. so if you wanna boost your fun while detracting from the others, there should be some form of "payment", because right now if you don't want/enjoy duoing theres no point besides getting upset, but this is a game so i'll just opt out until "the fun" gets fixed.

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10 hours ago, Kratos Fon Fabre said:

Instead of limiting partnerships we could reduce the amount of points duoq people get. By duoq you're going to be getting more points than normal as you have someone to cooperate with AND at a faster rate. Limiting that by reducing their points by 1/3 or so could be a potential fix for that.

This is an idea I would actually support, since it mitigates the effect of duo queues on the ladder without removing a unique feature of the server that, as I've stated in previous topics, has a number of benefits that people are overlooking.

 

Might be a little awkward to code since, for example, kills give 1 point at the time of the kill (not at the end of the match), but I could probably try to set up a system to keep track of partial points and apply them once they've earned a full point in that case.

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5 hours ago, Perry the Platypus said:

This is an idea I would actually support, since it mitigates the effect of duo queues on the ladder without removing a unique feature of the server that, as I've stated in previous topics, has a number of benefits that people are overlooking.

 

Might be a little awkward to code since, for example, kills give 1 point at the time of the kill (not at the end of the match), but I could probably try to set up a system to keep track of partial points and apply them once they've earned a full point in that case.

 

RO itself rounds up the halves, so if you get 0.5 points it shows as a 1 score, but if you get another 0.5 it'd stay the same. but i guess you mean its awkward because the bg tracker is a customized feature?

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17 hours ago, Seuvagem said:

RO itself rounds up the halves

It actually doesn't; in the vast majority of cases even 0.99 would round down to 0. Nearly everything in RO's source code simply casts to an integer instead of rounding or using floats, which means the decimal just ends up being dropped. There's very few cases where it uses proper rounding, though I'm not entirely sure why they chose to do it that way.

 

A lot of stuff in RO can't even be stored with decimals, including anything used in NPC scripts (like the BG Ladder script). The typical workaround is to instead have 10 = 1 point so 5 can be used as a half point for example, so the two options here would either be refactoring all of the code (including on the website) to use that, or adding a separate system that tracks partial points and applies them later.

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Posted (edited)
On 7/29/2019 at 5:29 AM, Perry the Platypus said:

This is an idea I would actually support, since it mitigates the effect of duo queues on the ladder without removing a unique feature of the server that, as I've stated in previous topics, has a number of benefits that people are overlooking.

 


Image result for it's something meme

 

I do understand duoq is a unique feature and it is pretty fun, after all, I've trolled with it before (good times). Having it work differently with a reduced tracking system to make up for it is as close as we'll get to a solution for both sides of this discussion. If anything, at least the idea is out there getting recognized and that's good enough for me.
 

8 hours ago, Perry the Platypus said:

RO's source code simply casts to an integer instead of rounding or using floats

good code practice I see. I guess it made everything super simple for them to work with.
 

Edited by Kratos Fon Fabre

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