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Sakuretsu

Flag-ins revisited

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I'm going to revive this post because it's never been more evident than now.

In WoE 1.0, previously we've put a cooldown on the flag so that it could not be abused to go to the emperium too quickly by inept defenders. That has worked very well, the flag prevents coming back too quickly and thus encourages the use of healing, and trying to stay alive is important.

However, in WoE 2.0, the cooldown can be bypassed by entering the castle and using the first flag you come across to warp you to the emp room. This bypasses the cooldown and makes it extremely rigged towards the defenders, especially since in the emp room you can use flags to move anywhere you want in the castle. LKs can die within 30 seconds and come back within 15 in theory. I'm saying LKs here because theyre the toughest, but really any character can come back.

I suggest the implementation of a system that disables the flags inside the castle if certain objectives were breached. Let's look at the map of mardol for an example.

 

mardolflags.png.3de58521b7c77384a741ed9c8054344f.png

What we could do in this map, is if guardian stone 1 break, disable the usage of flags 1-1, then if guardian stone 2 breaks, disable 2-2, making it that you cant use those flags to go towards the emp room.
And once the first set of barricades break, disable flags 2-1, 2-2, 3-1, 3-2, 4-1, 4-2. (the ones that are at that area).
Second set breaks, disable 5-1 and 5-2.
Last set breaks, disable all flags.

However, the flags in the emp room should never be disabled. This will still let players move to anywhere they want in the castle if they flag in to the emp room, but not the other way around if the objectives are broken.

I suggest this because i see absolutely no reason for anyone to go back to the emp room from the middle of the castle.

Upon writing this, i thought of the case where the barricade breaks, well, the defenders wouldnt be able to go back to the 2nd set of barricade if it's implemented this way, this would make the attackers able to rush to the 2nd barricade and then the 3rd, with the defenders unable to catch up, which is not very fair. I'm thinking this problem could be solved if we give the defenders a 30 seconds grace period before the flags are shut down. That way they can move back to the second defense point.

EDIT: I found something better for the guardian stones. Instead of disabling both when theyre both down, disable each of them individually when they go down. That way, a solo repairman can come back to the emperium room after a repair.

Edited by Sakuretsu

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Definitely agree that the flags still need to be addressed in 2.0.  It's problematic because it takes the same amount of time for attackers to try and walk all the way back that it does for a defender to just wait out their flag penalty, and have free reign over where they want to go on top of it.  While the changes that have been given have somewhat addressed issues in 1.0 to make bold play by the defender more risky, it is still a laughable probe in 2.0.

 

The above analysis and solution to make losing ground more daunting in a 2.0 castle is a good step forward.

Edited by Hylian Spectre

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I have to add the following:

When there is excessive flag-ins like this it causes a bottleneck for the attackers. It is impossible to push deeper into the castle, as the defenders are killed far slower than they can come back. This is not the case for attackers, they run out of resources, and then they die and have to regroup, as there is no way for them to flag-in, and the distance to go back to wherever they have to fight is usually very long, especially at the third barricade.

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I don't have anything to add to this, at least nothing comes to mind right now. But i do think this topic deserves more attention... i was waiting to see more people pitching in and maybe also read some negative points, but besides "making it harder to defend" i can't think of one.

 

+1

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I'm going to bump this and mention that we need the opinions of every party involved. Everyone wishing for a better experience in WoE should come discuss this, wether you are for or against changing the way flags work in WoE 2.0. It is quite possible for me to miss certain points, and if i did miss a point, then we have to revise this idea.

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Went and found my previous view on flag in and it still applies to this now. If you notice the 1.0 WoEs players are more cautious now. As a defender in 1.0 WoE your life means something since if you die you have to wait before you can flag in or walk it and be on the other side of the guild. In 2.0 you can mindlessly run it into the other guild because you have a free respawn flag in with no delay. Just hotkey warp to castle, walk in, take a couple of steps,flag to emp, flag to spot in castle and be back before the enemy guild can even push to the cade. An experienced player can do it in no time at all and be back before the initial fight even starts. Its more rewarding to just charge the cade rather than fight and kill the same people several times before you can make it. I like the idea tommy just think this post needs some more feedback which is hard to come by these days.

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Judging by the lack of attention this has gotten from the community, be they don't know what to say or don't want to say anything ( 229 views and only 5, soon 6, replies ) I'd like to see what others think about this by bumping this. Specifically from other guild leaders or who have had the chance to be a "lead" (or  even stepped into the woe Scene as this is a WoE topic). 

Of course, if things change and isn't approved or sit well with the rest of the community, then (: !
 

As for the flag ins, the idea I had was to do something similar to BG flag ins, where you don't really have flag in but a respawn instead. Inside the waiting room, you can have a respawn NPC choosing where to repsawn, however the cooldown to respawn can be ?? (i'm not sure how long it can be). Or you can choose to exit the waiting area and walk back from entrance but can't flag in from the gold flags in the 2.0 castles. The main difference from the BG death waiting room would be, you can pull them (the dead) out of the waiting room with an ecall.  I'm not sure how well this would work, but just an idea. 

 

 

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Most people have already said it, but in case this thread becomes a TL;DR I'll reinforce my own viewpoint on this topic.

If I as a defender can flag back into my castle in 10~20 seconds, then unless in those 10~20 seconds another key player dies which just breaks down the entire defensive wall (unlikely with a good line-up and numbers), the attacking force will essentially just be playing golf all day until someone manages to divert their attention or slip past the entirety of the defensive force. At which point, rather than WoE, we might as well be playing Deliver the Princess, because it's like trying to run through a field of Goblins with a blonde princess in your hands, with the Emperium being the throne.

Anyone who has played any sort of fantasy game knows that scenario sucks. I've been on both sides of it, and considering how the rest of WoE plays out with every other scheduled event, it seems sort of strange that Sundays would be the one exception to what would otherwise be a consistent WoE scene for strategy / planning. 

Now granted I'm not just going to sit here and address the same issues everyone else has without offering my own solution(s). 

My idea is simply this: If the defending team has an infinite flag in to a base which allows the use of checkpoints to strategic points in the map, why not just add shortcuts to those checkpoints in the castle? Similar to other castles (Like geffen), it'd just be a convenient portal(s) placed somewhere that brings you out closer to the final destination. This obviously doesn't entirely solve the issue, as the defending force would still be faster in reassembling, but I feel it adds a dynamic to 2.0 WoEs, knowing that there are multiple pathways to switch up the otherwise static tunnel run with several checkpoints the defenders can appear at and just huddle up(instantly).

Maybe it's a bad idea; portals are sometimes seen as trashy due to the time lag between attacking after entering one, but hey. It's just an idea. 

5800066.png.68e541d50a1b048f34c642a1c8c0c6c8.png

P.S. I know, barricades exist. I dunno much about coding, so I'm not sure how you could code such shortcuts that take into consideration whether or not a barricade has fallen yet (Doesn't appear / open up until the designated checkpoint would otherwise be reachable). But considering the other custom changes our server has, I don't think it'd be that big of stretch to implement.

Edited by Yuji

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+1 po tqtq
 

Spoiler

Jokes aside,

I do like this suggestion, not only because its my friends suggestion (lul) but it makes the defending guild actually use the flags in a more tactical way rather than just an easy way of regrouping. For a very long time, the flags are only used to easily regroup but there are so many undiscovered ways of defending the castles through these flags. I know my reasoning sounds vague but I'd rather not reveal any defensive strategies in here and let the other guild(s) discover those strategies themselves. 



 

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+1 to the suggestions above by Saku.

Thinking about it. Once the barricades have been repaired, the defenders can access the guild flags again right? This can encourage repairing the barricades more often(what is the cooldown of repairing barricades anyway? google can't help </3). And if there is still a way of abusing this, may I suggest putting a cooldown on the guild flags that is independent to the flag-in outside the castle. Should be a longer cooldown than the flag-in outside, imo.

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On 6/17/2019 at 2:14 AM, Hagibs said:

+1 to the suggestions above by Saku.

Thinking about it. Once the barricades have been repaired, the defenders can access the guild flags again right? This can encourage repairing the barricades more often(what is the cooldown of repairing barricades anyway? google can't help </3). And if there is still a way of abusing this, may I suggest putting a cooldown on the guild flags that is independent to the flag-in outside the castle. Should be a longer cooldown than the flag-in outside, imo.


If there is a cooldown on guild flags it has to be the same as flag-in from outside the castle. This whole suggestion is about making the flag delay system not bypassable by using the flags inside the castle, not to allow extra usages of flags.

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I like the suggestion that disables the nearby flags once the barricades are open, it makes a lot of sense to me. I agree that flags are overpowered and being an attacker it's all about "can we quickly win a GvG" (which is often implemented through sheer numbers rather than strategy) because defenders are basically infinite. Defending is too easy, and, while there should definitely be an advantage for them, they already have flag in and can make use of chokepoints with much more ease than attackers.

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Prepped for the next update. The link flags won't be disabled based on objectives, but they will share the same delay as the outside entrance flags (with the exception of the flags by the Emperium), which should accomplish the same goal. Repairing Guardian Stones or Barricades will reset the delay so guild members don't get stuck after repairing.

 

To give some clarification on the decision here, there were 2 reasons I chose to go with the delay instead of disabling based on objectives. The first is that I think the delay is simpler / more consistent, and doesn't need any awkward workarounds like the grace period after a barricade falls, which means it's clearer to players how the system works - either the delay is active for them or it isn't (and the flags will tell them how long is left), and it's the same as the system that already exists for entrance flags. The second reason is that the code for WoE 2.0 is pretty messy, and doing the objective-based disabling would require significantly more time to set up & fully test, so doing the delay instead allows me to get the update out faster.

 

If the delay setup ends up not being sufficient, feel free to open up a new topic after the update and we can discuss changing it to what was originally proposed here or something else. Could also potentially discuss the length of the delay if needed, since I do know that some players felt that it could be a bit longer than 90 seconds.

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Hmm, i was thinking that it was the zerging that made woe "bad". If i correctly understood the post, this encourages zerging more imo.

 

*On second thought it does stop the instant regroup of wiped defenders. 

Edited by iAloneAmHoly

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While it does to a small extent encourage zerging, I think it more so encourages wiping the defending guild, which normally isn't the intent of zerg rushing. It could also be looked at the other way around, in that it discourages "defensive zerging," where guilds are essentially just using numbers instead of strategy to hold the castle.

 

Also worth noting that there's actually other changes being implemented in the next update to help discourage zerging, which should more than offset any effect this change might have to encourage it. :o

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