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Seuvagem

Preventing Spawn Camping

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Hello, for those who bg quite often or try to probably notice spawn camping is quite common lately. Some players going out of their way to spawn camp just to try and look good with their k/d/a scores.

 

On some game modes this is not a problem, ie TDM & TI for the PvP-type and Rush & Conquest for GvG-type battlegrounds. 

But Domination, CTF, Bossnia, Eye of The Storm and Stone Control the spawn camping habits are often problematic.

 

Often time that leads to either people giving up and leaving bg(usually that is the case of new players) or the team of the spawn camper ends up losing since its a team-objective game mode.


One could argue that spawn camping helps the team by eliminating enemies, but often its proven inneficient due to the lack of team play and that same team ends up losing, since they spawn camp the ship(on domination, bossnia and EoTS).

The spawn point on CTF and SC are different, since it is kind of close to the objectives.

 

I'm open for suggestions on how to solve that problem, to either help with the health of battlegrounds and also discourage spawn camping.

 

My own suggestion would be, for the maps where the ship is the spawn point, creating a "safe haven" area where the enemies(and MvPs if its Bossnia) aren't allowed to enter. And this is only applied to the ships, not the side spawns in the respective flags, since those are still extremely close to the objective, so creating the "safe haven" would easily lead to abuse.

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Spawn camping of new players definitely doesn't encourage them to continue BGing. 

Similarly though, I think creating an essential basilica might encourage people to just regroup to it and screw with the idea of how teamplay should be carried out during the specified BG game modes. 

A better alternative, in my opinion, would be to create a immunity-timer, that could still be centric to the spawn point, Eg. the ships in EoTs would spawn you with an immunity timer of 5~15 seconds ON the boat, but as soon as you leave or the timer runs out, this vanishes & won't proc again until you die and respawn at the designated point. This way, it achieves the same effect of not allowing people to be spawn killed immediately and doesn't have the drawback of creating a free-escape zone for players who can't properly determine how to engage a fight (or run away from one to reposition with their team).

That's just my two cents, though, and I'd love to hear what @Perry the Platypus thinks about this idea. 

Thanks for bringing up the topic, I kind of considered doing it myself but just never got around to it.

P.S.

You still have to consider that creating something like this just means they may set up camp outside of the zone(s) rather than in them, but all in all I feel it does achieve some level of insurance that you have time to observe what you're about to get yourself into, and the trouble of waiting for people to come out during the extra ~15 seconds when they could be going for other players or actually doing objectives might discourage the idea all together.

Edited by Yuji

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Making the spawn campers warp back to their spawn point once they hit the players with immunity-timer would be nice. An immunity of 5 seconds, I think, is more reasonable because we have players w/ performance-enhancing drugs. And by drugs I mean 12016.gif662.gifhlif_avoid.gifkn_riding.gifal_incagi.gifsn_windwalk.gif

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Maybe make spawn within 3 possible points. Close enough together to be considered a rally point upon re-spawn but far enough from each other to make camping useless and/or unpredictable. I assume it is only a select few and not the entire team camping so they could possible camp a spawn point where folks don't even re-spawn at.

A part of me is thinking that it's just gear gap when folks are picked off at spawn as I've seen folks clear campers upon respawning at full health.
Personally, CTF and SC, I try to block off their exit point so they can't rush to cut off flag. I personally find camping spawn risky since you never know who you will get (and how many you will get).

As for the other game modes listed, if people want to camp, they will find a way --even if there is a "immune" zone. To discourage it, you can add less rewards for camping such as having 3 possible spawn points which may yield them no kills should they choose to camp one spot. Perhaps also adding incentives and rewards to game modes as well would be beneficial - would it be possible to add some form of reward system for being WITH your team for initiatives? (increase in BG tix or decrease in BG tix) -- this may help teams focus on playing together regardless of winning/losing matches. Or do away with the KDA score and make the scores based on matches won vs lost?

And tbh I haven't been on in a while so I'm not sure what BG is like nowadays. As a team member I personally would get annoyed if people focused on spawn rather than initiatives and I've only wandered to spawn points when I've either chased someone there and/or if we were winning and I wanted some action in the least. People used to bring flags or stones to their spawn points so that they can grab them at full health or swap etc. They also did this with MVPs for Bossnia --in some cases that's how some folks ended up fighting at spawn. As for Rush & Conquest / GvG-type battlegrounds. Conquest is a huge ass map that no one can't camp at since for the defenders you basically spawn/defend and the attacker's have to walk all the way back (and the distance is tedious). You can camp in conquest - i remember I camp spawned the attacker's ONLY SinX to break and they had to bring the entire team to pick him up. For Rush, camping spawn does become an issue but once someone takes the castle, the spawn points are at 2 different locations and camping becomes less rewarding (ie you can walk back when they push etc.)

Edited by Miss Vanjie

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14 hours ago, Yuji said:

Spawn camping of new players definitely doesn't encourage them to continue BGing. 
 

That or dying to 1 bolt --before I was seeing a lot of new players encouraged to join to just  "start bg" and when asked about slotting their gear, are told "you can put anything in it and worry about that later."Or get screamed at in game for not following initiatives. I've seen players join for one match and leave after realizing how under-geared they are. Dying to one hit etc either at spawn or somewhere on the map can be discouraging. Just some observations. But yes, spawn camping new players who may not know how to maneuver out of those situations will def put them off...but this happens all the time in TDM as well esp with one team getting a surplus of newbies and just being massacred at spawn (yes we've all been there) that or TI where one team just farms the other etc. I do think in this situation it does also lean towards gear gap/skill.

Edited by Miss Vanjie

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1 hour ago, Miss Vanjie said:

As for the other game modes listed, if people want to camp, they will find a way --even if there is a "immune" zone. To discourage it, you can add less rewards for camping such as having 3 possible spawn points which may yield them no kills should they choose to camp one spot. Perhaps also adding incentives and rewards to game modes as well would be beneficial - would it be possible to add some form of reward system for being WITH your team for initiatives? (increase in BG tix or decrease in BG tix) -- this may help teams focus on playing together regardless of winning/losing matches. Or do away with the KDA score and make the scores based on matches won vs lost?

And tbh I haven't been on in a while so I'm not sure what BG is like nowadays. As a team member I personally would get annoyed if people focused on spawn rather than initiatives and I've only wandered to spawn points when I've either chased someone there and/or if we were winning and I wanted some action in the least. People used to bring flags or stones to their spawn points so that they can grab them at full health or swap etc. They also did this with MVPs for Bossnia --in some cases that's how some folks ended up fighting at spawn. As for Rush & Conquest / GvG-type battlegrounds. Conquest is a huge ass map that no one can't camp at since for the defenders you basically spawn/defend and the attacker's have to walk all the way back (and the distance is tedious). You can camp in conquest - i remember I camp spawned the attacker's ONLY SinX to break and they had to bring the entire team to pick him up. For Rush, camping spawn does become an issue but once someone takes the castle, the spawn points are at 2 different locations and camping becomes less rewarding (ie you can walk back when they push etc.)

2 hours ago, Hagibs said:

Making the spawn campers warp back to their spawn point once they hit the players with immunity-timer would be nice. An immunity of 5 seconds, I think, is more reasonable because we have players w/ performance-enhancing drugs. And by drugs I mean 12016.gif662.gifhlif_avoid.gifkn_riding.gifal_incagi.gifsn_windwalk.gif

I think the immune zone is an okay idea. But maybe added with gon's idea it would be pretty good and a great way to discourage.

But the lack of incentive is also a problem, which comes to what we've been discussing about point system quite a while ago, only kills and objective caps are rewarded, not the whole team around those who got them. Altough for objective captures i can see it being a hassle to implement.

I don't know how easy it would be to implement the team play rewards or punishments in this case, but yea, there is very little reward, but the point would be that it should be understood from the start that its a team-based game mode.

And yea, rush and conquest aren't a real problem, not only those game modes don't really start often, but in the case you mentioned: the sinx should've told the team he was being camped and they should've done something as their only breaker. The objective being achieved is a team effort.

Quote

A part of me is thinking that it's just gear gap when folks are picked off at spawn as I've seen folks clear campers upon respawning at full health.
Personally, CTF and SC, I try to block off their exit point so they can't rush to cut off flag. I personally find camping spawn risky since you never know who you will get (and how many you will get).

58 minutes ago, Miss Vanjie said:

That or dying to 1 bolt --before I was seeing a lot of new players encouraged to join to just  "start bg" and when asked about slotting their gear, are told "you can put anything in it and worry about that later."Or get screamed at in game for not following initiatives. I've seen players join for one match and leave after realizing how under-geared they are. Dying to one hit etc either at spawn or somewhere on the map can be discouraging. Just some observations. But yes, spawn camping new players who may not know how to maneuver out of those situations will def put them off...but this happens all the time in TDM as well esp with one team getting a surplus of newbies and just being massacred at spawn (yes we've all been there) that or TI where one team just farms the other etc. I do think in this situation it does also lean towards gear gap/skill.

It is also a gear gap problem, but those aren't something we should just hand people out mvp cards. The mvp cards are "valuable", they should try hunting the mvps themselves. There is also a gear gap in mvping, but its way less noticeable in PvM compared to PvP.

 

CTF and SC are a lesser problem, and yea, blocking spawn access is one thing, sitting at the spot the enemy team spawn and literally just stand there isn't the same. I'm talking about actual spawn camping. 

TDM and TI objectives do involve killing other players, so I don't think those are necessarily a problem for that reason.

 

The problem of "just start bg" is another issue to be addressed, because they do get rewards for just playing and its there they notice the gear gap. But then again, we always redirect them to guides with builds(mainly your woe budget build) and most of them don't even take a look. So the problem is not just one sided, information is available and at everyone's disposal.

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Given the concern that Yuji brought up I do think the idea of an immunity timer (essentially a temporary "buff" after respawning) would likely be the better approach than the Basilica style idea. While people could still camp just outside the area, this would still make it a lot less efficient overall and should help to discourage spawn camping without any notable abuse cases. It could probably be set to something like a 15 second timer that then drops to 5 seconds the moment they leave the boat.

 

Warping players back to their spawn if they hit someone with an immunity timer would be a bit much in my opinion (especially since they could in theory hit someone by mistake with an AoE), and while extremely niche, could potentially be used intentionally as a way to teleport to another area of the map.

 

CTF and Stone Control would be a bit harder to implement this for, since the spawn areas are actually walking paths for a lot of scenarios and granting immunity here would likely be abusable as a result. I imagine this issue is less prominent in these modes though, since the map layout is a lot different.

 

Splitting the other spawn points (aside from the ships) into multiple areas might have some unwanted effects in a number of cases, though the spawns could be changed to areas instead of a specific cell so there was at least a bit of variation there.

 

On 4/3/2019 at 3:39 PM, Miss Vanjie said:

Or do away with the KDA score and make the scores based on matches won vs lost?

On 4/3/2019 at 5:03 PM, Seuvagem said:

I don't know how easy it would be to implement the team play rewards or punishments in this case

Basing it on wins/losses would have the same issue that League's ranked system has, which is that the rankings would be almost entirely separate from individual skill/contribution even though it's solo (or duo) queue. To give an exaggerated example here, two players that duo for 100% of their games would have the exact same ranking even if one of them did absolutely nothing in all of their matches. If wins/losses were added in to the ranking factors they would have to be a pretty small part of it, since rankings should always be based primarily on individual stats unless teams are static.

 

The rankings do already factor in objectives as well, so it isn't only kills/deaths (which is why points are listed separately from K/D), but doing so in a way that factored in players who helped claim the objectives would unfortunately be extremely difficult to do (detecting people who escort a flag holder in CTF, for example, would be almost impossible).

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Honestly, I haven't seen too many people camping (was in a BG came that went on for 20+ rounds this weekend). Those game modes listed above really require the enemy to go out of the way to do so --most people are trying to get objectives. And the issue comes from lack of understanding the game which lead new folks in BG to wander around and not contribute to team work. From what I recall, only one person was doing it and was trolling at best and/or boredom. I personally don't think this is that big of an issue (I've actually seen some people who didn't camp but were randomly at spawn for chasing reasons and they were wiped relatively quickly when the team spawned).


 

Edited by Miss Vanjie

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I'm all for Yuji's suggestion. 10-15 seconds should be enough to take you to either a base or the center.

Also, I think within those seconds, immune player should also not be able to deal any damage, just in case @die becomes a maneuver that takes advantage of this mechanic. (Or is that already implied in the suggestions above?)

 

11 hours ago, Miss Vanjie said:

Honestly, I haven't seen too many people camping (was in a BG came that went on for 20+ rounds this weekend). Those game modes listed above really require the enemy to go out of the way to do so --most people are trying to get objectives. And the issue comes from lack of understanding the game which lead new folks in BG to wander around and not contribute to team work. From what I recall, only one person was doing it and was trolling at best and/or boredom. I personally don't think this is that big of an issue

Just because it hasn't happened lately doesn't mean it will never happen again, and just because one player has stopped doing this doesn't mean another will not try it, nor does it have to be for the same reason/s.

This camping behavior is annoying enough to put off players who are new to BG, which they may or may not recover from, either way, it doesn't help the BG scene.

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Basic spawn camping protection is prepped for the next update; looks like the distance between the default spawn points and the middle camp was a little bit shorter than I actually thought, so the system will start with a 5 second timer after respawning during which you can't be attacked even after moving or attacking. This means that if someone is camping immediately outside of your team's default spawn point, you should have a few seconds to attack them (or try to run) before they can actually damage you, making it harder (and less rewarding) to successfully camp a team's spawn.

 

This only applies on the Tierra BG modes (Domination, Bossnia, and EoS), and only to each team's default spawn point (the boats), not the bases.

 

On top of this, the update will include some tweaks to the BG Ladder to hopefully discourage spawn camping a bit more; win/loss ratio will be added as a small factor in the rankings (very minor for now), and a few of the modes will be adjusted to give more ladder points for objectives than they currently do.

 

Hopefully this will be enough to mitigate the issue, but if it is still a prominent occurrence after the update please feel free to start up a new topic so we can look at some more changes to work on.

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