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Buckets

fire wall scroll(s)

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Anyone that knows me, knows that I'm a pvper by heart and yes-anything pvp related isnt being focused on this server as of yet and more on others things like woe, bg, and content. that being said, I would like to open up the topic regarding scrolls. First, I know scrolls would cause a complete upset in terms of the balance sheet of classes than what they are generally composed of. For example, it would be awkward seeing a preist being able to not only out heal your damage but also spam bolts at the same time making them better suitable classes than others in terms of strength. However, I do think one scroll, in particular, can get a pass and that would be the firewall scroll. A match between a sinx and champ which are the strongest classes for pvp could go one way or another. A sinx could win if they simply outclass a champ or a champ could win if they constantly cast pneuma and wear orclords while out healing the damage they received while kiting. What I'm trying to say is that firewall could add a little pizazz in pvp for all the better regardless of what class uses it. Now before you take out your pitchforks and torches, let me explain and finally get to my point and say that I think they should be sellable via the npc or more easily required from the monster marionette. I think everyone can agree with me and say that it is a pain in the ass hunting/farming firewall scrolls from marionettes because of how very few of them they are but also the card rate drop(literally) that makes it all the harder to get. Basically, it's a nuisance hunting these sheets of paper 4head. So, I came up some solutions I thought of.

 

List:

1. make it unlimited, like fcp but cost 2000DC or a little more if needed.

2. make them buyable from the battleground shop and poring coin shop with a ratio of 1:1.

3. If ygg berries/seeds, badges, and alovera can be sold by the convenience store then firewall can be added in there with the price of like 4mil. (best believe I would take some time of the day to farm money in f_forest just to buy em).

4. making the drop rate significantly higher than 10%. like cmon bruh

5. better yet along with the price or cost but make it only and ONLY *pvp orientated*. like a pvp specific item so it could solve many problems of overuse or dysfunctional in others modes like bg or woe.

 

so this pretty much makes up my conclusion regarding this topic. Of course, I would like other people's opinions and ideas on this topic. if people disagree and don't think nothing should happen then so be, I just thought it was something that could be brought up.

 

so I thank you all for taking ya time in reading this and p34ce.

Edited by Buckets

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I wish but I used to farm these buggers - that grind lol!!!! I highly recommend asking newbies to farm them for you (good for the market). I remember I used to get scrolls and buy them at vend and I got around 1.6k scrolls from folks hunting them for me. 

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1 hour ago, Buckets said:

.

+1

farming for this item might be annoying af 20 monster on map 10% drop rate...

from the list

i would rather pay 2000dc get unli and *pvp orientated* 

or as a unlimited rental item (if possible), bi-weekly or monthly rent 

with the current people playing  we cant get enough BG tix and since some jobs need items from Poring Coins...

 

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3 hours ago, Miss Vanjie said:

I highly recommend asking newbies to farm them for you (good for the market).

I do believe that this is what buying store permits are made for.

If your not confident that your store will gain any notice, you can advertise in-game or in the unofficial discord channel.

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Honestly, while I agree with the points made that it creates a market for new players and veterans to interact, that still means it relies on other people to function and while that's not necessarily bad, it also means you're still boneless should no one want to farm that stuff for you anyway.

I'm all in favor of adding more ways to obtain it or at least making the drop rate more reasonable, as farming them is literally a task hardly anyone wants to embark upon for something so valuable when it comes to PvP thanks to how difficult it is to obtain a solid amount. I once sold Firewall scrolls at a ratio of 1scroll:10dc. That's 1000 DC for 100 scrolls or 20mc if you convert it. Clearly, that price ratio is absolutely ridiculous but I feel that is the sort of expectation anyone farming them will have because of how immensely mind-boggling it is to farm them unless you're really efficient in making your rounds.

I don't care if they're unlimited or simply added in some form of convenience like PC / Zeny / BG etc. Anything additional would be better than where they currently are right now.

Love for PvP! +1

Edited by Yuji

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yea imma have to agree with yugi here. surprisingly he always makes my thoughts better than usually lol. but yea, the past couple months there was no word or demand for fire scrolls because of what yugi stated. I like that approach, never thought of that but I don't think newbies would like to indulge themselves in farming these especially how hard it is then having fun in the server starting out.

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Don't these scrolls also effect BG/WoE? They are basically free AoE reveals against cloaked units as well - not simply just for PvP displacement. Not to mention the scrolls can also effect classes like linkers (effective way to remove their magic buffs as well). 

Edited by Miss Vanjie

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even though my focus was to make these scrolls to be for pvp only, I hardly don't think it would make a lot of noise in the woe scene. Playing as a SL, your main job is just staying in the back line and keep up with links. for bg i hardly seen any soul linkers being played whenever I go in bg and even if there are if played right( meaning boosting up your mdef or resistance) firewall is basically like an ant crawling on your skin. the same could be said for cloak relevance in woe. I'm pretty sure your being hit by storm gusts, arrow shower, desperado, sight, ruwach, thunderstorm and etc so firewall is like why even bother to use that unless your in a skirmish which is wasting time. As for bg, honestly just deal with it.  pretty much the same in woe, your gonna get revealed someway or another.

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Real talk, no one outside of PvP has the mechanics to even land firewalls with their effects turned off in BG/WoE anyway. Like Buckets mentioned there's a ton of other stuff constantly revealing cloaked people so including the amount of skill needed to use them, I highly doubt anyone would be trying to firewall meta outside of the PvP room. I can see why you'd be worried about it for Soul Linkers, but again hardly anyone can aim that shit and the people playing mage classes already have access to it anyway. It should already be regularly cucking reflect SLs if this were truly a commonly practiced tactic, IMO.

Justice for PvP! Firewall scrolls!

Edited by Yuji

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On 2/3/2019 at 7:32 PM, Buckets said:

 

1. make it unlimited, like fcp but cost 2000DC or a little more if needed.

2. make them buyable from the battleground shop and poring coin shop with a ratio of 1:1.

3. If ygg berries/seeds, badges, and alovera can be sold by the convenience store then firewall can be added in there with the price of like 4mil. (best believe I would take some time of the day to farm money in f_forest just to buy em).

4. making the drop rate significantly higher than 10%. like cmon bruh

5. better yet along with the price or cost but make it only and ONLY *pvp orientated*. like a pvp specific item so it could solve many problems of overuse or dysfunctional in others modes like bg or woe.

 

1. I would most definitely not want these to be unlimited. It actually reminds me of something that was suggested before, wanting Unlimited Bolt Scrolls, regardless of the price it's a huge no from my end. ( It raises other things like this to be wanted as Unlimited )

 

2-5. These suggestions, 2 through 5, seem pretty reasonable and viable. However, for me, options 3 and 4 seems the best way to go about this.


Option 3, is as straight forward as can be; adding them into the convenience store is also a quick fix to this, as they are on the same boat as Aloevera.
 

For option 4, maybe adding a custom card to get a bit more the way we can farm Box of Sunlight. 


From my previous testing on both maps in which you can I roughly got 15 scrolls within 10 minutes in gef_dun02 and 20 Scrolls within 10 minutes at gl_in01. However, I do feel this is completely RNG with 10% drop rates.

The drop rate for this is low and mob spawn for them is low (20 in each map tested with no cool down for them to come back up. I personally would farm them in gl_in01 before for the reasons of; one, the size of the map and two, the map is easier to walk in compared to gef_dun02 (However, you can farm other things in gef_dun02 if you're a hoarder like myself)
While it is possible to get 100, in roughly an hour if you're lucky, they go by pretty quick and to farm so many is really discouraging for most players. There are ways around this, and that is hiring new players or farming players but yeah. 

 

There isn't much concern in BG/WoE, from what I can see at first glance, and the skill itself is better/viable to use on maps with push back to counter classes like LK (Bowling Bash), Champs (Pneuma), and even Profs (Wall of Fog) as stated previously by a more sinx veteran and pvp expert Neo ( @Vergil ).  

But anyways. +1 on the idea to put them in convenience shop or help boost the chances of them being dropped similar to Box of Sunlight. 

 

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On 2/5/2019 at 4:07 PM, Selcouth said:

1. I would most definitely not want these to be unlimited. It actually reminds me of something that was suggested before, wanting Unlimited Bolt Scrolls, regardless of the price it's a huge no from my end. ( It raises other things like this to be wanted as Unlimited )

 

2-5. These suggestions, 2 through 5, seem pretty reasonable and viable. However, for me, options 3 and 4 seems the best way to go about this.


Option 3, is as straight forward as can be; adding them into the convenience store is also a quick fix to this, as they are on the same boat as Aloevera.
 

For option 4, maybe adding a custom card to get a bit more the way we can farm Box of Sunlight. 


From my previous testing on both maps in which you can I roughly got 15 scrolls within 10 minutes in gef_dun02 and 20 Scrolls within 10 minutes at gl_in01. However, I do feel this is completely RNG with 10% drop rates.

The drop rate for this is low and mob spawn for them is low (20 in each map tested with no cool down for them to come back up. I personally would farm them in gl_in01 before for the reasons of; one, the size of the map and two, the map is easier to walk in compared to gef_dun02 (However, you can farm other things in gef_dun02 if you're a hoarder like myself)
While it is possible to get 100, in roughly an hour if you're lucky, they go by pretty quick and to farm so many is really discouraging for most players. There are ways around this, and that is hiring new players or farming players but yeah. 

 

There isn't much concern in BG/WoE, from what I can see at first glance, and the skill itself is better/viable to use on maps with push back to counter classes like LK (Bowling Bash), Champs (Pneuma), and even Profs (Wall of Fog) as stated previously by a more sinx veteran and pvp expert Neo ( @Vergil ).  

But anyways. +1 on the idea to put them in convenience shop or help boost the chances of them being dropped similar to Box of Sunlight. 

 

+1 to increasing the mob spawn rate actually - i still think they should have some work put into getting them. Most classes can utilize magnum break or use an envenom clip + poison spore for the knock back. Firewall is pretty great - esp vs WS/LKs and classes that can get kited. I know Luis's sinx ran it consistently and it was a nightmare trying to even get close. 
Basically properly placed firewalls make pneuma useless - a skill that a champ should have access to - while sinx would have to work to get in a sonic blow and/or find a way to make them move out of the pneuma. IMO hesistant to touch this and esp sinx already being super strong in pvp having an anti-pneuma skill that is easily accessible. Increase the spawn rate - would effect newbies who would want to farm for it and sell on the market. 
 

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We generally leave spawn rates as is simply because there's a number of items that have been time tested for quests which may be affected by adjustments in mob density. Making them more farmable in some other way (either adjusted drop rates or adding them to other mobs/areas) might work, though having them as a Zeny sink might actually be the ideal option here if anything is done. It would be a repeatable cost that would help to maintain the overall relevance of Zeny and add a bit of overhead for other economy related tweaks (such as adding Zeny rewards to new/existing features).

 

Having said that, pricing would be a bit harder to work out if we do go through with this. I wouldn't want to completely devalue them or make it not worth farming them whatsoever, especially since as a couple people have already mentioned, this is something that potentially encourages open market trading.

 

Based on Selcouth's post (roughly 100/hour, give or take), putting them at the same value as an average full party GR farming rate would be about 50m per scroll. A base price of 75m would mean they could get discounted to 56.25m each, which would in theory still allow newbies to farm the scrolls and sell them at a slightly cheaper price (40-50m each) as a way to farm a pretty decent amount of Zeny when GR isn't active, so long as people were buying them.

 

Obviously that's still a pretty high cost but I figured using GR as the reference would be at least a decent starting point for any discussion on this. Would love to get some more feedback from players on this one.

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First off: Definite no to unlimited anything of this sort for me.  We've been down this road before and let's just say it caused a lot of problems.  You can test me as to why it's a bad idea, but I'll bombard you with a novel with all 12+ reasons, so I'd rather not.

 

Part of me thinks that if this is done at all, they should be available using another currency other than Zeny.  Perhaps unrelated, but Zeny is a really valuable currency right now, and although that's a good thing, I think it's gotten to the point where it's actually no longer healthy; people don't really want anything else.  The market has frankly stagnated, because people aren't really selling anything anymore.  Everyone simply wants more Zeny for Enchanting purposes and the other currencies are getting hoarded aside from the occasional BGT <--> DC trade.  There needs to be more pressure to actually use BGT IMO aside from Converters, which not all classes actually even need.

 

I do think that a PvP-oriented shop would be nice, but with how things are right now, that might be awkward.

Edited by Hylian Spectre

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9 hours ago, Hylian Spectre said:

First off: Definite no to unlimited anything of this sort for me.  We've been down this road before and let's just say it caused a lot of problems.  You can test me as to why it's a bad idea, but I'll bombard you with a novel with all 12+ reasons, so I'd rather not.

 

 

aight clam down bruh it was just 1 of many suggestions I had on the list. You can stack your bible of reasoning on the top bookshelf because it wasn't even that serious.

 

Now that we have some lean-way of what direction we can go with this topic, as a future accountant (4head) maybe I could come up with some ideas that would sound beneficial? I dunno I could just be babbling lol. to start off,

if there are no ideas on how the custom card would work. What  if you put them in the same category as the angel race. if u guys can guess where I'm going from I think it would be a nice touch to not only farming the fire scrolls but box of sunlight as well since both are very valuable for pvp. This could entice people to farm it all the more (well at least for me).

 

my other idea was going of from the pricing perry had determined. Let’s Just make them 7.5mil in the convenience shop. after the discount from the merchnat skill would it be like 5.65mil? if so I did some calculations and u can roughly get up to 175 scrolls per mc and I think that sounds pretty reasonable.

 

With this i hope it would be prosperous in th economy as this was only for the top of my head. If anything, let’s keep this train going for more ideas or thoughts from fellow peers

Edited by Buckets

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1 hour ago, Buckets said:

aight clam down bruh it was just 1 of many suggestions I had on the list. You can stack your bible of reasoning on the top bookshelf because it wasn't even that serious.

I guess that Inertia joke looks kind of aggressive to a newer player; my bad (was a reference to an old guide on there), LOL.

 

Memes aside, the idea of the custom card is interesting, and may provide a practical means of farming it for those already farming boxes and other stuff, but I guess it'd be a matter of Perry making the call of whether the method would create too much influx that would disrupt the classes in any way.  Namely reviving Bolt Pallies/Champs/HPs and other shenanigans like SinXs knocking people out of Pneuma/SW every 2 seconds.

 

Another pro for the custom card may be that it addresses the Zeny issue I addressed above since it would require actual farming instead of spending Zeny, something that people already don't really want to part with at the moment.  Meanwhile, people do farm BoS, Cursed Water and Runes of Darkness, so this would add yet another incentive.

Edited by Hylian Spectre

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On 2/10/2019 at 2:14 AM, Hylian Spectre said:

I guess that Inertia joke looks kind of aggressive to a newer player; my bad (was a reference to an old guide on there), LOL.

I had a feeling it was a joke from that sever too since I heard some stuff about it in the first half, but in the second I was like “nah”. Lol my bad for sounding butthurt. 

 

Im not sure what u meant by reviving bolt pallies,champs,priest cuz I’m sure firewall isn’t considered a bolt but I’m guessing you meant the overuse of it and I’ll have to agree with that. As we alrdy explained how it would carry out in bg/woe, it’s to be expected in pvp most definitely. On the other hand, I see it as a way to add more to your arsenal to get more dmg out.

 

Looking at the pvp state it is alrdy at in terms of “powerful”,  the main classes that are played are sage, champ, sinx, and wizard. Sadly there’s isn’t enough of others for them to be considered(I guess ws can be added) played the most. Like so, I doubt you would be seeing pallies or priest using them hence their ability to tank and sustain. pvp too is mostly 1v1s, so at this point it mostly comes up to skill whether you can avoid getting dmged with the help of firewall and counter it with the means of items or cards. I just experienced how ugly it is when profs uses wall of fog, safety wall, and firewall to make sure you can’t even come near them. Not sure if they started using that just for the memes of this topic being brought up cuz I’m sure as hell it wasn’t be used before lol, but like I mentioned before, if I had stayed longer I prob woulda added a rad rsx in the frame to counter that.

 

overall I don’t think the use of firewall is as bad as people make it seem to be and could overall just bring more fun to the table.

 

aside from that let’s get more ideas how we can implement the use of firewall scrolls more. 👍

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I'm still catching up on things after my earlier health issues so a few things are a bit behind / slower than usual; this should be prepped soon though as it's going to be included as part of a larger economy update that's currently being worked on. :o

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