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Should Pharaoh card be buffed to 50%?

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So a suggestion from @Hylian Spectre from another thread suggested to buff Pharaoh cards to 50%.

As this would be a nice fix to the meta at the moment which is the Mana Sap meta, I don't really agree with the suggestion.

I understand that using 4 slots to counter Pressure/Dark Priest cards is a lot, but I think 50% buff on Pharaoh is waay too much.

I think 40% is a good number it would leave you with 1 more slot assuming you're only using 2 Kiels, but I think 50% is too much. Though, I also don't mind keeping the card the way it is, even though this meta is a huge pain in most of my builds :(

Also here is the original post from Hylian Spectre



Pharaoh Card:

- Buff: -SP Consumption per Card from 30% -> 50%.


The issue with Pharaoh Card is that it's 30%, and you have 6 slots to work with.  30% is odd not only because many classes already have 3 slots used for Kiels, but also because the extra 10% for one whole slot is more of a waste than anything else.  By improving Pharaoh Card to only require 2 slots, then:


- This ensures that Pharaoh Card is still useful, without it being such an impeding annoyance in HG builds.

- Most classes who require Kiels are happy because they have 1 more slot for at least something else.

- Mages are happy because they can at least keep 1 HWC on.  With a future nerf to 20% per HWC potentially coming, this might be necessary due to Immaterial/Dark Priest spamming physical classes who also have high MDEF; allowing for at least some MPen is only fair IMO.

- Champions can't Asura, but they can still use other skills if they swap out 2 Pharaohs (Critical Explosion negates SP regen).  This will keep Champions in check similar to Inertia, where keeping on top of draining their SP will stop them from Asura, but won't render them useless due to FO and PPS still being on the table.

- Using Pharaohs on Inertia took up 1 HG, so doing something similar here may not only be more familiar, but also more streamlined for swapping.



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While I do agree that 50% may indeed be too high, it's important to remember that you've simply quoted what was nothing more than a whim brainstorm thrown around in an off-topic thread (oops)... I didn't really mean for it to be taken this seriously (in fact, even Perry thinks it may be a bit too high, but it's food for thought/speculation).  However, I believe your rebuttal to be a bit weak (can you please clarify what classes you're referring to when you say that only 2 Kiels are necessary?  While there are a few, they only make up a handful of over a dozen classes.), but before I delve into why it is weak, I think that this is a great opportunity to hear from others with different opinions since you made a thread to discuss it.

Edited by Hylian Spectre

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53 minutes ago, Hiroin said:

ya 2 kiels h4h4 gud joke man i laff so hard

I actually play some classes with 2 kiels. Theres a lot of cards I could put on that 3rd kiel slot like resist cards/hwc/Pharaoh/Maya P/Bacsojin (the list goes on) or even status effects card if they actually come in effect.



what classes you're referring to when you say that only 2 Kiels are necessary?

Mage and Acolyte classes do pretty well with just 2 kiels, I play my High Priest with 2 kiels and I can spam pretty well on my Champion with just 2 kiels. Snipers can also be played with 2 kiels due to Sniping suit giving 23%  After Cast delay. I think Creators can also be played with 2 Kiels but it may be a little clunky to spam with.

Also I made the suggestion thread because I thought it deserves its own thread other than the one it was on. 

Edited by Exroh

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Just 35% would be enough if you're trying to kill the 4 Pharaoh issue. Although I'm not sure if buffing MVP cards to re-create old inertia tier pvp of SP being irrelevant entirely is what Perry wants. Right now SP draining is meta and it's fun to figure out ways to get around it. You actually could use 3 pharaohs and get 100% sp cost reduce atm if you're willing to sacrifice just a bit of your stats and resists. Although it probably wouldn't pay off on too many classes except those that absolutely need 3 kiels and infinite SP. The idea of having to trade off keeps it a bit more interesting, IMO. Not just the same cut-and-paste meta from 4 years ago.



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I think Pharaoh card should be buff too. Just like what Ganon stated, rocking with 2 Pharaoh in 1 HG will be nice and bring back that inertia feeling. But I'm just a little worried for Professor in WoE/BG (not so much in PvP). As of right now Proff is easily doing the highest damage and the fact that you can have 5/6 bolts in the air + with our new HP mod = feelsgood. I'm not saying there isn't a way to counter it but I think something needs to be done to Professor, idk.

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I'm quite split on this idea, honestly. I think 50% would likely be too much, though I could be wrong on that. 40% seems more reasonable to me personally, and would leave the option of having custom gears to fill the gap if you wanted to only use 2 headgear slots. The idea there, of course, would be giving the option of sacrificing something else (likely resist or stats) to free up that extra headgear slot, giving some variance in build paths depending on what the player wanted.


As Yuji mentioned, this server isn't the same server as Inertia, nor is it intended to have even a slight relation to the old server, so any argument of bringing back elements of Inertia isn't really relevant. That's not to say some things can't be the same, but they need to have other points backing them up rather than just a direct comparison between servers, and right now I'm not certain there's necessarily any reason to have it as high as 50% aside from swapping being more convenient (which, while convenience is a good thing, it doesn't always translate directly to balance).


I suppose an alternative would be adding a custom ring with 10% SP cost reduction? Could even include 5% cooldown reduction (same amount as Sprint/Expert Ring) and just make it a relatively simple quest so that it's easily available to newbies as an early item if they want it. That way Pharaoh stays the same, but you can get the full 100% by swapping off an accessory as well. In the future we could potentially add either a BG armor with 10% SP cost reduction, and/or perhaps a garment, so players could choose exactly what they want to sacrifice. This may be a bit too high of a cost though, I suppose.


If we went with 40% on Pharaoh we could do essentially the same thing, having an armor/garment/accessory with 20% on it, allowing players to decide if they want to use 3 headgear slots or 2 + an equip slot. This might be the better option since it seems a more reasonable sacrifice to make, while still forcing a decision on the part of the player.


Edit: In hindsight, having a 20% armor to fill the gap would be a huge benefit with very little sacrifice for most classes, so it would be more likely to be 10% on the armor and 10% on the accessory so you need one of each (or 2 of the accessory) if you wanted to save the headgear slot.


7 hours ago, xFrumS said:

but I think something needs to be done to Professor, idk.

There's a topic for Professors already. :o


Edited by Perry the Platypus

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3 hours ago, Perry the Platypus said:

Edit: In hindsight, having a 20% armor to fill the gap would be a huge benefit with very little sacrifice for most classes, so it would be more likely to be 10% on the armor and 10% on the accessory so you need one of each (or 2 of the accessory) if you wanted to save the headgear slot.

If you were open to custom gear to fill in the blank, then 40% is probably the sweet spot overall.  The issue right now is that the accessories that we are currently left with aren't exactly desirable (Expert Ring increases SP cost, Sprint Ring in general is just "meh").  Mages, Archers and Acolytes get the benefit of Diablos Robe for 10% ACD, but I believe the problem runs a bit deeper than that (and why I believe that Exroh's rebuttal is overall weak, which I'm going to outline below),.


@Exroh: While you are correct about Snipers, and while there are also a couple of classes who I'd argue don't even need Kiels, there are a couple of big issues that arise in the big picture with how things currently are.



- Requires 4 Kiels, cannot wear Sprint or Expert Rings, and cannot wear Diablos Robe.


Assassin Cross:

- Requires 4 Kiels, cannot wear Diablos Robe, but can wear the Rings.



- Both High Wizard and Professor require 3 Kiels, and I believe that once God items come around, at least 1 HWC at all times (especially if it gets nerfed to 20%).  God items and and a decently refined upper-HG will put around 40 MDEF on everyone even with 2 Taos and without any MDEF gear.

- Even if a Mage were to try and use 2 Kiels with 2 Expert Rings and the Diablos Robe, that's still only 80% ACD.  Bolts have a delay of 2.8s, and most High Wizard AoEs have a delay of around 5s.  I think that anyone can do the math and see the problem here... Bolts being left with over a half second delay and most HW AoEs clocking in with around 1s delay is not optimal, and I think most would agree on that.


High Priest:

- Requires 3 Kiels for the same reason as the Mages, but for defensive reasons as opposed to offensive.  Most High Priest buffs clock in at anywhere between 3 ~ 5s ACD.  Doing the math again, it is easy to see once again that the extra 20% that you suggest is "fine" is actually not optimal.  I think that most would agree that buffing an entire party with that 20% delay will lose to a party whose High Priest has 100% ACD, especially when you also consider enemy Professor Dispel spam.

- The other glaring issue with High Priest is their need for at least a couple of Bacsojins along with those 3 Kiels similar to how Mages will need at least 1 or 2 HWCs; different reasons, but same principal.  What you're left with is a High Priest who really can't Heal much better than a Paladin, and is arguably more fragile than a Paladin as well.  To top that off, Bacsojins also increase SP consumption on skills; perhaps that can be removed in the future though.



- Since we are discussing them, might as well mention that an offensive Pally will need 3 Kiels.  Pallies cannot wear Diablos Robe, but can wear the Rings, putting them at 100% with 3 Kiels and only 70% with 2 Kiels; many offensive Pally skills have around 3s ACD.



- 3 Kiels and either Diablos Robe or 2 Rings of choice; this is not negotiable.  Arrow Vulcan, multiple songs, and Tarot Card of Fate all sport hefty ACD values; nothing below 100% ACD will suffice for this class.


In conclusion: While I do agree that 50% may be a bit high to ask, I wholeheartedly disagree with 2 Kiels sufficing on majority of classes, but do think that custom alternatives that @Perry the Platypus suggested may be the answer in the long run.  The main issue right now is that while 2 Pharaohs might be a bit low, 4 Pharaohs is far too much, and fixes that currently exist in-game are far too band-aid-y for the long-term.

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I've spoken to a few others and 40% definitely seems like the way to go here if we want to promote some build diversity as well. The obvious/simple choice would be 3 Pharaohs, but custom gears will allow other choices for those that need the headgear slots. On that note it's also a minor buff to magic classes (and others of course), which will be nice since they're currently set for another nerf outside of this topic.


We've actually already started on backstory for a quest to implement the ring, so we'll try to get that in soon. No exact ETA on that, but as it's going to be a rather simple quest (item fetching) and doesn't rely on other content aside from tying it in to some already written lore, I don't think it should take too long. Currently the ring is planned to provide 10% SP cost reduction and 5% CDR, so using 2 of the ring will allow you to save a headgear slot, as well as saving a 4th Kiel for the few classes that actually benefit from >90% CDR. Not necessarily a top tier accessory, but I think it'll be a nice grab for newbies (especially after newbie oriented cards are added), as well as being an option for players who want to try out different build paths.


I've also started working on effects for the first batch of Battlegrounds armors, one of which is currently set for +10% max HP and 10% SP cost reduction, so it could be substituted for one of the rings if players want to keep at least one stat belt on instead.


These details are subject to change, of course, though I don't think any changes will be necessary here.

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